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Brenton: Hello and welcome to the Brenton Peck podcast where we delve into people’s stories and the values that shape them. Today’s guest is Rachel Fabbi, a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified alcohol and drug counselor, and certified perinatal mental health specialist. Rachel has worked in the mental health field for over 20 years, serving in roles from case management to inpatient treatment and addiction recovery. Her journey has taken her from Arizona to Hawaii, where she lived and worked for six years, and now to Idaho, where she practices as a therapist and a birth doula. Much of Rachel’s work today focuses on supporting mothers and couples through the challenges of pregnancy, birth, and the postpartum season, a calling that grew out of her own lived experience as both a mom and a doula. In our conversation, we’ll explore her path into therapy, what she’s learned from walking with people through both deep suffering and transformation, and why perinatal mental health has become her focus. Rachel, it’s an honor to have you here today.

Rachel: Thank you, Brenton. It’s an honor to be here. I appreciate you asking me to come.

Brenton: Yeah. So what inspired you into therapy? Let’s go a little ways back.

Rachel: Okay. From the very beginning, well, I suppose what inspired me to start to go into therapy was that I was already working with a mental health population. So I was doing, at the time, I was right out of college. I had my degree in psychology. I was fascinated with psychology from the beginning. Like, in fact, when I went to college, I didn’t know anything about psychology, really. I didn’t have it in high school. And so I sort of, you know, was going along my path in college, trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I was starting with a degree in communication because I really, I knew I loved people.

I was good at math and science and that kind of stuff, but I loved people, and I just wanted to work with people. So I was sort of like just trying to figure it out. So I took a couple of psychology classes and it was like, this is it. This is exactly what I love to do. So that’s where I got my degree in psychology. And then I had no idea what I was gonna do with a bachelor’s degree in psychology. So I went to a career fair, actually, in Arizona, and they had a booth set up for a mental health agency, and it was called a recovery team associate. I’m like, well, that sounds cool. Recovery team associate.

And I said, I have a degree in psychology and communications, or communication, and do I qualify? And so I did, and I got hired there. I had really no idea what a recovery team associate was at the time, but I got hired, and it was like a case manager. So I basically was there to help clients come in and just sort of get set up with mental health treatment, help them connect with just medication management. Oh my goodness, psychiatric medication. And to get into therapy and to find recovery, like substance abuse treatment, if that’s what they needed. So it was sort of like the hub, and I loved it. It was really cool, because if they needed housing and just community resources, it really sort of set the stage for my understanding of what kind of services are out there, what was available for people, what wasn’t available for people. And so it just sort of helped me get my fingers in the soil a little bit when it comes to community treatment for mental health and addiction.

And I worked there for a long time, and it was sort of like I just wanted to do more. I’d have people come in and sit with me in my little cubicle, and they would be telling me about their problems and their struggles, and I could help them get resources, but that was pretty much it. I’d write a treatment plan in terms of what reason, in terms of what resources I could get them. But I wanted to help more. I really wanted to be able to know what to say and what to do when it was come to working with their struggles. So the people, there were a bunch of different types of employees at this agency, and there are a few therapists, and I was friends with them, working with them, and so I just sort of followed them around like a puppy dog, like, “Tell me what you do. How do you do it, and what do I do? How do I get into this field?” And so that’s where they sort of like kind of helped me understand the process, and it was a little bit intimidating at the time. It was like, “Well, first you gotta go to grad school, and then you have to do like a practicum and an internship, and then you have to do postgraduate work and supervision, and then you get licensed, and then you can be a therapist.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s a lot.”

But yeah, it seemed so intimidating from that point of view, looking down the road, but it’s just one step at a time. So it was like, “Okay, well, what’s the first step? First, I’m gonna apply for grad school.” That’s number one. So that’s what really kind of set the stage for my work in therapy. Nice.

Brenton: Yeah. Was, when you were following them around, was there a particular area that stood out to you that drew you in?

Rachel: Hmm, with those therapists there? I don’t know. I didn’t really know what they were doing, honestly. I wasn’t really sure. I just knew that people would go see them, and then they’d come back to me and meet with me for their case management, and they’d be like, “That was great.” I feel, you know, it was really nice people to talk to her. There were two, there was a man and a woman, and they were both just, they just seemed like they had this ability to really support people more deeply than I could. And so that’s what I really admired about them.

Brenton: So it sounds like you were more interested in the connections with the people than necessarily the medicine side, or it was much more getting to know someone than with them on a personal level.

Rachel: Yeah, totally. It really was. It was like, yeah, that’s an interesting point because I never was really drawn to the medical side. And I used to go sit in the medical appointments with all my clients, which was just part of our job. So I learned a lot. I loved the practitioner that I worked with. She was really amazing. And so I just learned a lot about, you know, just sort of watching her interact with people and give them options, give them ideas of what, you know, what sort of available treatments there were for them. So I really loved it, but yeah, I never was really, I never was wanting to do that. I never had that inclination. I was really interested in being able to connect with the stories that people had and to help them through them. So, yeah. Yeah.

Brenton: So obviously you did go to grad school.

Rachel: I did.

Brenton: Because you are a therapist. Yeah. But how did you make that transition from case manager into progressing down the path of being a therapist?

Rachel: Well, I was living with my bestie that I had been friends with. I’m still friends with her since we were 10 years old. So she and I were living together. I had come out of a breakup, a couple of breakups. And so I was like, I need to change. We were living in this cute little like apartment kind of thing. And I had heard, this is sort of funny. I had heard somewhere from someone, this was when I was still in this relationship. I’d heard somewhere that, you know, if you can figure out where you wanna be, what you wanna be or who you wanna be with, one of those things, that’s all you need to know. And then the other things will all follow. And so I had had this conversation with the guy I was dating at the time. And I said, I know I wanna be a therapist. Like I figured it out. And he said, I know where I wanna live. And it was someplace different. And he’s like, I figured it out. And then we sort of were realizing, oh, neither one of us said we know who we wanna be with. So we ended that relationship. I was like, okay, that’s a good sign to move along and both of us to pursue the things that we really wanted to do. So that’s when I was like, I wanna be a therapist. I knew that’s what I wanted to be. And so she and I were living together and this was like January.

And so I was like, okay, well, I’m gonna find a grad school. I thought for whatever reason in my head, the only place to go to grad school was Boston, the East coast. I have no idea why, too many 90s movies, 2000s movies maybe. But that’s what I had in my head. I thought that’d be really cool. We had a friend too that went to grad school in Boston. And so it was sort of like, let’s go to Boston and check it out. And I wanna apply for some grad schools. So I looked up all these grad schools that I was interested in and all of their application deadlines for that upcoming like August or whatever, that upcoming fall season or semester, the deadline was like December 31st. So it was like right past the deadline. And so that would put me at like the deadline for that year and then another eight months before I could start grad school out there. So that was disheartening. Like, oh shoot, now what the heck am I gonna do? So we’re still trying to figure it out. I went to Boston to visit that friend in January with my girlfriend I was living with. And it was a miserable, it was absolutely, I thought I’m sure that Boston is an amazing place in lots of other months, but January in Boston coming from Arizona, I didn’t even have a proper coat. Like I didn’t know what the heck I was doing.

Yeah, it was. And it was like not the friendliest place I’d ever been. So it was like, okay, maybe I need to rethink this whole Boston thing. This is gonna be a year and eight months before I can even start at this pace. Like what are we gonna do?

Rachel: And so the woman I was living with, she said, let’s move to Hawaii. Instead, let’s go live in Hawaii for a year. And I had never been to Hawaii. I was not, I didn’t think, I just hadn’t sort of allowed that possibility to enter my brain because I’d never been and it just seemed like we’re fancy people with money and I was neither of those things. So I thought, there’s no way we can move to Hawaii. And she was just like a visionary. She was like, we can do it. We’ll figure it out. She was sort of a more fly by the seat of her pants kind of gal. And I’m a more like, I need to plan this for years and years before I can make this step. But we didn’t plan for years. It was January and we ended up moving in July. So our lease was up in July. So that’s when we decided to move to Hawaii. So in that six months or so, I got a second job. I was working at Starbucks along with my recovery team associate job and just working day and night. And I didn’t have a relationship. I didn’t have anything else going on. I was just like there to make some money and get myself to Hawaii, figure it out.

And I found some friends on Craigslist, some people with a room to rent on Craigslist in Hawaii. And my friend moved in with a family. She was a nanny with a family. And so I moved kind of just by myself with these other people who were nurses and they were really cool people. And so I found myself in Hawaii six months later.

Brenton: Was your friend still close on the same island?

Rachel: Yeah, she was on the same island. So we, yeah, she lived pretty close. It was like, everything there was, even if it was close, it took a long time to get places. It’s not like it is in Idaho where it’s like, we can drive this many miles in 15 minutes. It was sort of far. So we weren’t, we didn’t really get to hang out a whole bunch just because of just the, you know, our life, our lifestyles. And I was working, I was able to transfer to a Starbucks in Hawaii. So I still had that job and I got another job in the mental health field there as well. And so, yeah, we got to see each other though on the weekends and go to the beach and that kind of stuff.

Brenton: That’s awesome.

Rachel: Yeah, it was really awesome.

Brenton: The reason I asked that is it’s like three biggest stressors in life, divorce, death and moving. Yes. So you moved out, but you still had a support system. And why you still have a support system in Starbucks?

Rachel: Yeah, totally. There were familiarity. Yeah, that’s true. It was true. It was like, it was really neat because the people I moved in with, there are two women and a man and they were just, we were all about the same age. They were like, I think in grad school maybe, or they were in college to finish up their nursing, or they were starting out in nursing. One was in grad school to become a pharmacist. And so we were all in a similar phase of life. So we sort of like felt in with each other pretty easily. And so it was cool to have them. Yeah, I was working at Starbucks, so I was kind of meeting people there. They were all younger than I was. And the Hawaiian accent is strong, like the sort of pigeon accent. So it was really fun sort of trying to understand what people were saying through the drive-through at Starbucks.

So that was a cool way to sort of like just get to know people, local people on the island and get an idea of just like the culture and just be a part of the island really. And then working in the mental health field, it was just, it was so fun. I mean, I just, I love working in mental health field, obviously, but it was just fun. I worked with a, I worked at a residential facility for severely mentally ill people. That was like my very first job there.

And it was just like, I was sort of doing just like sort of admin work there when I first started, which was not what I wanted to be doing. I want, of course, want to be working more with the clients. But it was just so, it was just such a beautiful place. I mean, it was incredible. So it was just fun to be like getting to know everybody. So yeah, I sort of got to develop a support system there.

Brenton: Going back to, you said like, you got into mental health kind of, because you wanted that relationship with people to really be able to help them. And so what’s popping out to me is like, do you have a passion for people, for understanding people? So getting to understand different cultures and how they interact broadens your whole capability to interact with everyone. So I think it was incredibly enjoyable.

Rachel: It really, yeah, that’s a really good point. It was really fun. Hawaii is the most diverse state in the United States. So I got to meet people from all over the world and all kinds of different cultures. And I worked in the community from the beginning. So it wasn’t, I got to really just learn about different people’s points of view and what their experience was growing up in Hawaii and having a white person come in, like join their plate, their work and stuff. And just the struggles that people face and the struggles people faced with, there’s a lot of homelessness and a lot of drug use and abuse. And it was interesting to learn about a whole different, yeah, a whole different community. It was really, really cool. Yeah, I loved it.

Brenton: I always loved different cultures. I grew up military. My dad was Air Force for a long time. And so I got to experience all the cultures on the beach. Heavy Asian populations, Asian populations, you name a culture or anything and it’s there. It’s much more diverse than anywhere else I’ve been.

Rachel: Yeah. I miss that. Yeah. While I was living there, I ended up meeting my husband to like skip ahead a little bit, meeting my husband that I have now, still, he’s still my husband. But I met him there and he was in the military. And it was so cool to be a part of the military culture too because you’re right. It’s like people are from all over the country, all walks of life. And yeah, it’s like, sometimes I think the military gets a bad rap for being real, how do I wanna put it? I don’t know, just sort of like closed-minded maybe even. But I think from my husband’s point of view who grew up in Idaho, he, it was really eyeopening for him to be a part of a, you know, a broad culture where there was so many people from so many places that he, it really helped him to broaden his perspective on people’s plight and people’s struggles. And, you know, who are the people who choose to join the military? There’s a lot of different reasons to join the military. And so just even learning about people’s stories with that, yeah, I think the military culture is really interesting.

Brenton: Yeah. I guess one way to put it isn’t that they’re close-minded, it’s maybe it’s top-down rigidness. And so it’s like, that can instill a sense of being close-minded. It’s really not. There’s diverse-- Yeah, totally. Accepting people I’ve been around.

Rachel: Yeah. Are you always going into edge cases? Yes, always. Oh, no matter where you go. Yeah, yeah. That was my experience being a military spouse, you know, as well.

Brenton: What did you think, did you have interaction with military prior to that? Or was it like a complete eye opener, different view of the world?

Rachel: To get to know the people who are in the military when I was there?

Brenton: Yeah, we’re living on base.

Rachel: Did you go to the military base? We did live on base eventually, yeah. So it was interesting because when my dad was in the military before I was born, so I sort of like knew of the military, but it was like my grandpas were both in the military as well, and so I had this sort of like respect for the military and respect for people who joined the military, but I didn’t have any like experience really in the culture. There was a base in the town I grew up in, in Tucson, Arizona, which is why my dad ended up, he was stationed there, that’s how he ended up in Tucson.

So I sort of, we’d go to like air shows on base or we’d do that kind of thing, but I wasn’t really involved in the military culture. So my first experience with military culture, I guess, was just going out. We would go out all the time. This was like 2007 when I moved there. So like that was the vibe in 2007. So we would go out like that was what we’d do. And so we’d meet people from all over the place, but we always met military guys, and most of them were Marines. We met a lot of Marines. And so that was sort of, one of my roommates dated a Marine for a while. And so we got to know the Marine culture, which is its own brand of military culture. So yeah, it was like, it was just a party. Like they were just a party. I don’t know what else do you even say about it? Hard working partiers.

Brenton: My dad was actually stationed in Tucson as well. No way, really? For Tucson for six years.

Rachel: Oh yeah, well, there you go. That’s cool. So Davis Monthan? Yep. That’s where my dad was stationed too, twinsies. That’s cool, yeah.

Brenton: Random thing. I remember we used to go tarantula hunting during the, well not hunting, like finding during tarantula mating season. They would chase the van tires. So you could drive really slow and they’d like, No way. Passively, personally chase the tires after driving.

Rachel: I did not know that. Oh, they’re 25 years, I never knew that.

Brenton: My dad has no fear, he’s a daredevil. Oh my gosh. Me and my sisters out. And during mating season, they’re very aggressive. And tarantulas can jump six feet in any direction.

Rachel: What? I did not know that.

Brenton: And he’s going up and just nudging them with his foot.

Rachel: Whoa, oh my gosh. Well, I have to try that next time I go back to visit. Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. That’s really funny. Man, went to the new every day.

Brenton: So going back to Hawaii, did you get in grad school to go into therapy there?

Rachel: Yeah, so I was there for not long, maybe a few months before I, well, I mean, I think I fell in love with Hawaii the second I stepped off the plane. Like it was, it truly is the most gorgeous place I’ve ever been. I haven’t been everywhere, but it is so amazing. It’s just incredible. So I was like instantly in love. I was working a ton, so I didn’t really get to go out to the beach or hike as much as I would have liked to. I was always working, but it’s like I flew all the way out here and moved here to spend my time working in a Starbucks. So like always doing something.

But anyway, I went at the mental health agency that I was working at there. I met, there was a different type of case manager. So the case managers in this agency would take their clients to their appointments and be sort of driving them all all over the island. And so people were always coming into our office to take their clients to their doctor appointments or whatever, pick their clients up from the residential place I was working. And there was one of the case managers was chatting with me and she found out that I had a bachelor’s degree in psychology. And she was like, why are you working in admin? Why don’t you be a case manager? And it was like, well, first of all, I didn’t have a car. I was taking a bus everywhere because you can’t drive your car out there. I didn’t have any money. So I was taking the bus and I thought, I can’t be a case manager because you need to drive everybody everywhere. And she basically just sort of encouraged me. She was just like a little piece of the story along the way of saying like, you can apply. There’s a grad school that you don’t have to wait until next December. I sort of had this idea that that’s what I was gonna have to do. She’s like, no, you can start, they do like quarterly or maybe you can start halfway through the year. And so this was July when I moved there and I was able to get into grad school by January. And so I got to start grad school, six months after I had moved there.

And I bought a car for $600 from one of the people who worked there. He sold me his car. And so then I was able to like cruise around in this $600 car beater working as a, I got a job as a case manager too. I also was inspired to go sort of move out of that admin job into being a case manager and to start grad school. So I sort of quickly moved from that initial spot to doing some more stuff.

Brenton: How did you handle those transitions? Cause that’s a lot of change.

Rachel: It was. It was, I think it’s just, I think it was just one foot in front of the other. Like it was like, and I think a lot of it was honestly like motivated by fear of not having money. It was like, I, a lot of times I get this feeling, my sort of sense of life is that I have a foot on the gas and a foot on the brake. And so my foot’s on the gas a lot. Like I’m like, ooh, I wanna do that. I wanna move to Hawaii. Yeah, I wanna move, that sounds so fun. But then my brake pedal’s like, you can’t move to Hawaii. You got to, you don’t have any money and you’ve never been there. Like what are you gonna do without your family, without you don’t, this support or how you don’t have a car. You’ve never taken the bus at like a public bus transport. So it was, it’s like always that push and pull. So I think it was like partially driven by the fear of not having enough money. That would be like propelling me to work, work and work.

But then it was like also propelled by the excitement of, oh my gosh, if I could go to school here, then I don’t have to go to Boston. I don’t have to go back to that cold place. So I just wanna, like, it was exciting. And so it was sort of like, I can easily get overwhelmed if again, like if I sort of look down the barrel at all the things that have to happen, but it’s like, well, I don’t have to think about all the things, I can just buy a car. I can just put my application in. And then if I get called for an interview, I can figure out how to take the bus from all the way where I was living, I was living in Kahalu. So it’s like far, far away from Honolulu where like sort of the city center is. And so I can figure out how to take a bus all the way to the city center, which is like a two hour endeavor. And then I’ll figure out what to do from there. I’ll figure out what the next step is after I figure out this first step. So that sort of like helped me handle it, I guess, handle it all.

Brenton: Yeah, there’s a psychologist I follow, Jordan Peterson. He created a program called the self-authoring program. And he did it for all of his college students when he was a professor.

Rachel: Oh, cool.

Brenton: And it increased, I forget the percentage, but it increased their grades. Oh, cool. Can’t think of the term retention state not dropping out and increase their grades in all their classes. And what the program was, he has you right, I wanna say it’s for just like 15 minutes on two things, I believe it’s two things. One is if everything, and I’m gonna butcher it. Right. If everything went wrong, what is the worst that would happen? What are your fears? How bad do you see your life going? And the second one is if you could have anything you wanted, the stars aligned, if everything happened the way you want, what do you picture yourself doing in five years? And he said the key there, and this goes back into some of the psychology, like with rats, you can motivate a rat to go through a maze just by chasing the scent of food. But they go faster if there’s the scent of food and then you whacked the scent of a cat behind them.

Rachel: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Like motivation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brenton: You can find a way to pair both of those.

Rachel: That is interesting, yeah.

Brenton: You have that fear of--

Rachel: Yeah, I have the cat chasing me. Yeah.

Brenton: So you have both of those, which really help you propel forward.

Rachel: Yeah, totally, that’s so funny. Yeah, and a lot of times my fear is like FOMO, like fear of missing out on what I really wanna do. So it does feel like the scent in front of me, like, ooh, I don’t wanna miss out. And also like, oh, that would suck. Like the pain of missing out would be something I wanna avoid and sort of run from. Yeah, that’s funny.

Brenton: He’s very big at define your vision. And the vision’s not all just if everything’s rosy. You have to have that vision behind you and the vision in front of you kind of to propel. Yeah. That’s where you’re like, okay, I have this vision. I wanna be a therapist.

Rachel: Yes.

Brenton: I can feel it. I can taste it. I wanna, yeah.

Rachel: I wanna. Yeah, and where I am now is not gonna get me there. That was the feeling I had in Tucson where it was like, what am I gonna do? And that feels uncomfortable to me to feel sort of like stuck in that. I gotta get out of here. I gotta go somewhere. Get this.

Brenton: I feel like you were already practicing a lot of the skills that you would teach people. Yeah.

Rachel: Like you were aware you were doing something you had learned. I mean, I’m like a therapy geek and a psychology geek. I love it. So I’ve been reading about stuff like this for a long time. You know, and like my mom bought me a book when I was maybe in high school, maybe early college, that was basically a CBT kind of book, cognitive behavioral therapy book that just sort of helped you understand the implications that your thoughts have on your actions and have on your emotions.

And so I had that sense. I also, I got another book from my aunt who gave me a book about basically like visualization, manifesting what you want, creating sort of like the life that you want. And so that helped me see sort of like essentially just the power of your thoughts, you know? And that if you’re thinking thoughts like, well, I can’t do that. Oh, I’m never gonna move to Hawaii. I don’t have enough money for that. That that is just, you’re gonna make the decision to go, well, I guess I can’t go. So it was, I did have an awareness from that point of view of like, if I think that way, I’m not gonna go and I want to. So I got, I have got to overcome those thoughts somehow. So yeah, so there was like some sort of baseline information in there, in my brain somewhere.

Brenton: The last episode I did, David was talking about imagination. He said, you know, a lot of people just dismiss things as, well, that’s just your imagination. It’s not real. But he said, he views it as, in a lot of ways, imagination can be more real. I can close my eyes. It’s not real. Yeah, totally. And so if you think about imagination as being real, what you mean to your mind, what you focus, what you’re imagining very much plays into that and investing itself because you’re turning that into something, so vision.

Rachel: And you’re gonna act differently based on what you’re visualizing. And I mean, it’s as simple as like, if you think about, like think about the thing that happened most recently that you were just dying laughing. You know, it’s like, we can kind of look back and be like, what was it? Like, oh my gosh, yes, I was crying laughing about this game I was playing with my girlfriends. You know, and it’s like, when you think you’re visualizing it, you’re imagining it and your body is sort of like, you know, you’re just like, are pulled into this like, sort of joyful feeling and it’s laughter. And so that change, just changing your mood really does change what you’re doing. And of course, if we were to think about like, what’s the saddest thing that you have ever heard happening or the saddest thing that’s ever happened to you, it’s like, we will go and we can imagine that and it is real, our body responds. If we’re thinking of something scary, our body responds to that, our heart beats faster. You know, we dump adrenaline into our bodies. It’s real, our imagination really does have a real impact. And what we’re thinking about and what we’re feeling really, really impacts what we do, like what we choose to do next. So yeah, I’m such a believer in that too.

Brenton: I think there’s an interesting overlap too, between imagination and the physical. Because there’s like studies, if you are feeling down, if you put a pencil in your teeth and hold it there, it forces your mouth into a smiling position and you start feeling your mood pick up. You don’t know why, you’re just holding a pencil. You’re not doing anything. So there’s a little--

Rachel: Totally. It’s true, I know there’s a technique I’ll draw out for people. And now sometimes people have some sort of like, not everybody’s a lover of CBT, of cognitive behavioral therapy. Some people feel like it’s just sort of outdated. I love CBT, I use it a lot. I think it can inform a lot of what we do, even when we’re using additional therapy treatments. But, you know, sort of CBT tool that I’ll use is this idea, it’s sort of like a triangle, where it’s like your thoughts, your feelings and your physical manifestations or your actions, like sort of like your behavioral stuff.

And we think of it as like, first my thoughts come, you know, if we’re sort of like lying this out in a linear path. First I have these thoughts, then I have these feelings, then I have these actions and body sensations or body responses. But it does go both ways, it really does. If you’re holding that pencil in your teeth and you have that smiling, your brain interprets that as, oh my gosh, something might be good. Maybe things are funny right now, I was supposed to holding it like that, yeah, and holding it in this frown position. Same thing with posture, to hold yourself open and to expand, there’s interesting research on just the posture that you hold and how your body responds to that with your cortisol levels. And it’s just interesting, I think it’s so interesting. So it’s like, yeah, we can change any of those three points. We can change our thoughts, we can change our feelings, or we can just change what we’re doing and it can have an impact on those other things too. I think that stuff’s interesting.

Brenton: Jordan Peterson again, he said one of the things he advised his clients, like he had some people that could severe anxiety, could barely get off the couch, lived with their parents for forever, he talks about those and they wanted to get better. And so they would, well, can you clean your room? And they would try and they couldn’t, they got overwhelmed. And he’s like, you keep breaking it down to a smaller part until you get to a piece that you realistically can do. And so you break it down, can you pick up 10 items? Well, no, I couldn’t do that. Well, can you walk in the room and can you just look at it for 10 seconds? Break down as small as you need to.

Rachel: As tiny as possible, yeah.

Brenton: And so as you’re explaining the triangle, it’s like, if you’re in this really dark place, maybe one of these points is too overwhelming to change. Yeah, totally. And you can adjust and pick one of the ones. Maybe you can just hold the pencil in your teeth for 10 seconds.

Rachel: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Brenton: You can stare in the mirror in the morning and smile telling yourself an affirmation. Change your language. You have all these levers that you can pick up to start where you’re able to.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, totally agree with that, exactly. I always find a lot of that fascinating. I do too. People are fascinating. It’s so interesting to look around and say, why, why? Why are people like this? And that can sound like real judgy. We can be real judgy and be like, what’s wrong with everybody? Or we can say, what, why are they like this? Because there’s gotta be a reason. We don’t do things for no reason. There’s some reason it’s happening, either it’s what we’ve learned, it’s what our bodies can do. If, you know, there’s all kinds of things that can be the reason for why people are the way they are. So to have that curiosity, I mean, that’s a big, I think that’s a huge part of learning psychology is that it sort of forces compassion because you’re curious, you know? And so the more you learn about someone and the more you are able to see their story and understand them from their point of view, which it just, compassion follows from that. You know, there’s like a Brené Brown quote that I’ll probably mess up too, but it’s basically like, it’s hard to hate people close up. You know, and that I think, man, if I could give one dose of something to the entire country, that would be it is some compassion for each other, some learning about each other, curiosity to, you know, to stop hating each other. And like, you know, it’s hard to hate each other close up.

Brenton: Yep. I think everybody should learn more about everyone else. Yeah, me too. We’re oftentimes in a stay in age too very close minded. If it doesn’t agree exactly with what I think or believe, I’m gonna completely shun you. And it’s like, you can hold your beliefs and thoughts while still understanding where someone else is coming from. You have to adopt their beliefs. But there’s been a lot of talk over the years too, like a well established thing is you tend to be the sum of the five closest people around you. Or maybe not the sum, average, whatever you want to say. So a lot of, like we’ve been told for forever, be very careful about the friends you choose. And you’ll read in self help books, whatever. If you want to advance, always make sure it kind of sounds weird, but make sure you’re the dumbest person in the group. Because you always have people that you’re learning from. You can lift up. Their statistics like, if you sit within 15 feet, I think it is of a high performer, your performance increases by like 30%. Oh my gosh, wow. But if you sit in that same range of a low performer, your own performance decreases.

Rachel: Wow. That’s interesting, yeah.

Brenton: So it’s like, put yourself around people carefully.

Rachel: Yeah.

Brenton: But I think we’ve taken that too far. Like you can understand someone without completely just shunning you.

Rachel: Yeah, totally. And we don’t have to agree to empathize or to have even just to have compassion to say, “Okay, I understand that you are going through this, that that’s your experience without saying, “No, no, no, that’s wrong. You’re not feeling like that.” Or, “Well, I disagree. I don’t think you should feel like that.” I mean, and that goes from the macro level down to the micro level of, in relationships is to say, “Okay, well, I don’t see your point of view husband, or I don’t agree with your point of view. I don’t see it the same way. I don’t feel the same way that you do, but I can have compassion for the way you see it and feel. And I can hold that with respect because that’s your truth.” And to have compassion for each other, it trickles down all the way to the babies. So how we raise our children.

Brenton: I, a lot of what I watch is Jordan Peterson. But one of the things he talked about is, one of the approaches he took when interacting with his clients, he always wanted to understand them. And he dealt with very, very dangerous people. So he’s like, “You have to be completely open, trust, honest. They can’t sense anything in you that you’re trying to manipulate them or do anything. Just be completely open, honest.” He’s like, “The best way he found to do that was not to say ever that there’s no way I could ever do what they did. The approach of not that I would do this, but in what circumstances would I have to find myself in where I would commit the same actions they commit?” And that allowed him to put himself in their shoes and understand at a deep level, humans are capable of a lot of very dark things. And we can’t ever think that we could never do what someone else did. We’re not in their shoes, we have a better path. What position would I have to find myself in that I would do that same thing?”

Rachel: Yeah, yeah.

Brenton: And I always thought that was an interesting--

Rachel: I love that. Yeah, I love that so much where it’s like, there before the grace of God go I. We can get real hoity-toity and on our little high horse of like, “Oh, not I, I would never.” And it’s so othering, it’s so disconnecting. And really, I mean, yeah, we need more connection. We crave connection, we’re made for connection. So it’s such a disservice to ourselves even to look at other people, others, and think this idea of I would never.

Brenton: I hate the statements always or never.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brenton: It’s like, I’m pretty sure I can imagine a situation and it may be completely made up, but you do something and I’m sure I can come up with a situation where it would happen.

Rachel: And sometimes it’s hard to imagine, to say like, “I really would never, I can’t imagine.” And that might even be enough to say, I can’t imagine, but I believe that something did happen, that there is some thing that happened that led to this decision this person made or this action or whatever it is that I can’t even imagine. And it’s because I’ve lucked out, it’s because of the grace of God. I just, I wasn’t put in the position that I would ever be able to imagine that. So, yeah, I think that can go a long way is that like, even to say, “I don’t know. I don’t know what it would be that would make me do that, but I’m not gonna close the door completely on this and say, I would never.” Or like, they’re a bad human being, something like that.

Brenton: A lot of people, as soon as you say, “I would never,” it’s just you’re on self-righteous high.

Rachel: Yeah, totally. And that feels real good. Yeah, totally. It breaks the connection for sure. And it can feel real pleasurable to be like, I’m so high and mighty. And which I think is part of why it feels uncomfortable to put ourselves into someone else’s shoes, to allow ourselves to imagine what would it have been like for them? That’s painful. Compassion and empathy does take more work than high hoarseness. It just takes a little bit more discomfort, tolerance of the discomfort.

Brenton: In some ways though, I think that’s far better. You think of the concept of work. You’re gonna work either path you take.

Rachel: Yeah, totally.

Brenton: Using budgeting as an example. You can either put in hard work because you’re struggling because you never watched your money or you put the work into budgeting and then you’re gonna work either way.

Rachel: Yeah, exactly.

Brenton: I think of that with empathy with other people. It’s like the higher you stand yourself up, the bigger the fall. But if you’re spending the time connecting with people, you have those around you.

Rachel: Yeah, I agree. It’s a longer term gift to ourselves to practice empathy and compassion. It can feel quick and easy to be like, well, those people are just idiots and they’re just a bunch of whatever. That feels quicker and easier, it takes a little less effort. But we do suffer, we absolutely suffer in the long run. Our relationships suffer at the very least, but our wellbeing suffers, our connection to others suffers. It really is such a gift to yourself to practice that, even if it’s a little more uncomfortable in the short term.

Brenton: Yeah. There’s another interesting thing from Peterson. He talks about, we’re supposed to love others and even if you talk about loving yourself, someone that’s incredibly selfish doesn’t actually love themselves because implicit in that statement to love yourself isn’t love yourself in this present moment. You can almost think of yourself as a million different people at all these different points in time. So to love yourself, you can’t think about just here and now, you have to think about yourself in five years, in 10 years, in the same way with others. You have to think about your spouse in five years, in 10 years. And so if you’re acting in your own best interest, that sounds selfish, but really taken to completion, thinking across time, if I’m completely selfish in this moment, I’m hurting myself.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. Because I need everyone around me. Yeah, it really is like a benefit to you to be less selfish in the short term, or to consider the whole picture, to consider the whole unit, the family unit, or whatever system you’re a part of.

Brenton: Yeah, I don’t hear people often talk about a person being a plurality in a way.

Rachel: Uh-huh, yeah, I like that.

Brenton: And not just a singular person, but really an infinite number of persons at different points in time, because you’re not the same person you were 10 years ago. You’re always changing a bit. I mean, there’s huge parts of you that are different.

Rachel: Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, that is really interesting, I like that point of view.

Brenton: So, well, going back to Hawaii, you got into grad school.

Rachel: Okay, yes.

Brenton: And did you have favorite classes? Were there ones that were particularly challenging or drew you into a more interesting form?

Rachel: I loved grad school so much. This is one of the things I think it’s like the saying of if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life. It really, I mean, it was work, it was hard work, but I loved so many of my classes. It was cool, like I said, Hawaii’s very diverse, and so we had cultural competency kind of classes, I don’t remember what they were called at the time, but that kind of thing, and just learning about different cultures take on mental health and different ways of treating mental health. And so there’s a very big Eastern influence in Hawaii, and so we learned a lot about different Eastern treatments and like qigong, just sort of Tai Chi, that kind of thing, of how you might manage your stress with some of the tools that we can learn from Eastern cultures. So that was really interesting, I loved all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, there were a lot of really good classes. I’m thinking like there was, our abnormal psychology class was a very challenging class, it was really rigorous, we were held to really high standards in that class, I remember that one sort of sticks out, it was like the class was like, I am determined to get through this one, it was a really tough class, but it was really good, we basically had to learn the DSM, the diagnostic manual, and no, it’s inside and out, but it was really interesting, we learned, it was just interesting, I love learning about people. Statistics was another, we had to do a lot of statistics, research methods, that kind of stuff, and like I said earlier, I was really good at math, I was into math and statistics, and I’m kind of a big nerd about a lot of that stuff. So to me it was like, ooh, fun, we get to learn about statistics, but that was sort of a challenging class for a lot of people in the mental health kind of field.

Brenton: My degree’s actually out of math, but I always laugh, because a lot of people think you have to be a certain type of person, you have to be very analytical, and that’s actually not true, once you get past some of the basic stuff, the higher the level of the math, the more artsy and creative you have to be, there may be a hundred different ways to solve a problem, one may take 30 years, one may take five minutes.

Rachel: Ooh, that’s interesting.

Brenton: So it’s building that intuition and creative, Yeah. into problem solving.

Rachel: Yeah, oh, that’s interesting, I’ve never heard it put like that, that’s a good point.

Brenton: That’s why there’s a strong correlation between musicians, Yeah, totally. to do music, which I’m good at math, but creative.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense, that’s interesting. But statistics, Right?

Brenton: Statistics is interesting, a lot of, I think there’s a lot of people that would argue statistics isn’t math, because it’s not definitive, this plus this equals this, Yeah, yeah, yeah. it’s, it is math, Yeah. but it’s, Mm-hmm. it can be manipulated.

Rachel: Right, I think that was probably, I mean, of course it was like to prepare some people who go through the grad program to become researchers, but for the rest of us who didn’t become researchers, it’s just so interesting to have that insight into, oh, these can be manipulated, and how did they come up with this statistic? And that is sort of a similar energy we bring into, sometimes we can bring into sessions with our clients of, okay, where did you come up with this? What’s the sample size? What, where, how can we maybe explore different points of view of this so-called statistic, or this piece of fact that you believe as hardcore, as a piece of, as a factual statement that might actually have some fluidity to it?

Brenton: I would imagine it’s also helpful, because I would think as a therapist, you probably have ongoing learning requirements. Yeah. So I would imagine having a statistics background is really helpful if you’re reading papers, you’re doing studies, how rigorous was this? Is this something we can really follow?

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, totally. It helps you just sort of like pick, pick and choose what you believe and what you engage with. And yeah, that kind of thing. I think that it’s, I think that’s useful for everyone, you know, that’d be probably helpful for everyone to know. There’s a lot of things I think everyone could benefit from knowing.

Brenton: Obviously I love math, I love calculus, but I wish we didn’t teach calculus in high school. I wish we got statistics.

Rachel: Yeah, that’d be interesting.

Brenton: Because it’s in everything we see.

Rachel: Totally.

Brenton: It’s in our commercials.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brenton: Everything, people just quote all these things and nobody understands it. And so sometimes we’re led astray by stuff.

Rachel: No kidding. That would be a great thing to teach people and to learn like logic and reasoning kind of stuff to be able to see through these like fallacies and see through, yeah. Like let’s pick apart these statistics and these, you know. Yeah, I think I’m with you. I would love that so much. That’d be a great thing to learn.

Brenton: I didn’t take statistics till I was in college. I did take formal logic. I was home school. And so I took formal logic. And then I repeated logic again in college because it was so important.

Rachel: Yeah, that was one of my favorite classes in undergrad was my logic class. I thought it was so interesting. Yeah, I like, have I mentioned I’m a nerd about things? I was just thinking, I should pull that. I should refresh myself on some of that stuff because I was teaching my kids about it. I’m like, let’s talk about red herrings or whatever. Poor kids.

Brenton: I have to admit, I’m a nerd too. I like collected and got to all my college textbooks.

Rachel: Oh, totally, yeah.

Brenton: So I still have my logic textbook.

Rachel: We’ll have to look at it sometime. Yeah, that’s so funny.

Brenton: I do think going back to more of the psychology thing, I didn’t get to take a whole lot. I took intro to psych and I took culture to psych. And cultural was really fun for me. I really enjoyed that one. And then I also took cultural anthropology.

Rachel: Ooh, that sounds cool. I never took any anthropology classes in school, but actually since becoming a doula and learning about how people birth in different cultures, it sort of led me on a whole, and learning about children, learning about child development, how people parent in different cultures. I’ve become like super into anthropology these days. I just am like, well, I wanna learn all about that. It’s so interesting. I wish I would have taken classes like that in school.

Brenton: I think psychology in my experience, which is much more limited than yours, I think in my experience with psychology, there’s not enough emphasis put on the differences between cultures.

Rachel: Yeah.

Brenton: I think people are an amalgam of the different cultures they’re in. And in culture, I’m saying that very specifically. I don’t mean an ethnicity or something. You have a church culture, you have a country culture, you have a city culture, you have a work culture, you have a family culture. So you can tell a lot about a person and how they’re gonna act by knowing the amalgam of the cultures they’re in.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And my degree is in marriage and family therapy and a part of the way we see a family in that sort of upbringing is like as a system, as a culture and to be a part of a system. Yeah, it’s like, and when we’re looking at, why is someone the way they are? Well, what culture are they living in? In all these cultures, what’s their environment? Even what so much is like, what are they eating? How much sunshine are they having? There’s so many things that impact the way we are and our environment is huge. It’s not all, everything is not just coming from our faulty thinking by any means. Yeah, there’s so much to it.

Brenton: I mean, there’s a lot of research coming out on like the dyes, like the falls. I know people with autism can react very strongly to this where it just sets off massive amounts of anxiety and actions and so, I mean, that’s an environmental factor. These dyes are in all sorts of stuff we don’t know. Totally. And some people are in affected biome and some people that’s just a huge impact.

Rachel: Yeah, and so if it’s something so teeny tiny like that, I think for all the things that could be playing a role and who were around the kind of energy, just like the vibe, the, not trying to sound all woo woo about it, but really, but it’s like the, what are the beliefs of everyone around us and how do they respond when we say, “Hey, mom, I think I’m gonna go to college.” What’s the response to that? And that trickles into our belief system and our belief systems now, those become like subconscious sometimes. So we don’t even, we might not even recognize that we’re thinking, oh, I can’t go to school, but we feel it, we like, it’s almost like we know it, even if it’s not accurate.

Brenton: Yeah. I forget where I heard or read it, but trauma is not just in your mind. Trauma almost takes hold throughout your whole body, not anonymous system. And so I think of the same thing, what people say to us does affect us, not just in our mind, but it can settle in completely. You were saying you almost just feel it.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. And so if you have an upbringing that starts from the, I mean, I would argue prenatally, that what we’re experiencing, the chemicals our mother holds in her body as we’re growing in her womb, what does that create for us? How does that impact our nervous system? And then what environment are we being raised in from the get-go? I mean, this isn’t like a me theory. This is like, there’s a lot of research around this and the impact our attachment has with our attachment figures, our parents from the get-go and how we grow, how we develop and the beliefs that we hold as deep as just am I lovable or not, which is a huge, that plays a huge role in what our actions are, what we decide to do, how we feel, our mental health. There’s so many implications for the belief of, I’m worthy to be walking around on this world. Yeah.

Brenton: I don’t remember where the study is. I’ll go back and look it up. There’s some studies out there that have been done, I might’ve heard this on Tom Bilyeu. There’s a lot of studies that have been done that a huge predictor of success is the number of words you hear in early childhood and the ratio of positive to negative. You look at a lot of, I don’t know, ghetto or really challenged communities and it’s, they only talk maybe a 10th as much and the ratio of positive to negative language is like 70% language and 30% positive. And so it’s the tone, it’s the language you’re hearing growing up, it’s the number of words. And then on the other end, you see very successful people and families, maybe high-end neighborhoods. And that’s a huge difference. Is they’re speaking 10 times as much that they’re hearing to their kids, they’re hearing it, but also the ratio of positive words to negative words. And so it’s that tone, it’s that environment, that whole, all of that sinks in. You don’t even realize.

Rachel: Yeah, totally, totally. And so to say like, well, I could never, it’s like, how can we imagine being a baby in an environment that has 70% negative words being said if we were raised in a family that had like 70% positive words? You know, how could we imagine, other than to just go, I will just imagine what it would be like. I might not know what that’s like because I’ve never experienced, but I can only imagine that it must be different. It must be, it is different. It feels different and your body responds differently. And then how you find safety is different. You know, and that is, that’s a big driver for how we do anything as a child, as a baby, is I need to find safety, I need to find belonging. And what do I need to do to get that? And so that can like inform how we act as an adult too. And get into those patterns.

Brenton: This is maybe delving a little more into pregnancy and maybe a little perinatal, but like it’s been out for a long time. Play classical music and hold it in the baby. But I’m a little more curious. Music is one of the few things that engages your whole brain. If you’re thinking creatively, you’re on one side, you’re thinking analytically, you’re on the other, but music uses the whole brain. And so I’m a little curious more on that. Is the music affecting the baby? Or is the music more affecting the mom than regulating and adjusting?

Rachel: Yeah, totally. That’s a great question. That is a great question. And I don’t know what the research is behind all, you know, how you can even sort of know for sure, like which one it is, but that would be a great thing for a mother to do is to practice anything that helps her nervous system relax and helps her feel that sort of bilateral stimulation of that experience of music to be doing something lovingly for your baby. I mean, and how would they pull out the, speaking of statistics, like how would they pull out the factor of if we have the time and capacity and willingness to play music for our babies, who are the mothers that are doing that versus the mothers that don’t have the time or don’t have the resources or don’t have the willingness or desire or even know about that? You know, has never even heard of that. So yeah, there’s so many factors into that. But I would say, yes, like that is a great point. What we are experiencing as a mother carrying a baby is it, you know, definitely never to ever, ever shame a mother, you know, for the struggle that they may be going through. But if that’s something we can connect to as a mom, you know, who’s pregnant is to say, oh, I’m gonna practice relaxation. I’m gonna lay down and listen to some music. Fabulous. That’s amazing. Do that for your baby. Do that for yourself and do that for your baby. Yeah. That’s a good point.

Brenton: Well, going back to college, you finished grad school. Yep. And then did you just stay practicing in Hawaii? You mentioned you were dealing a lot with severe and persistent mentally ill. Was that in Hawaii as well? Or did you leave that in Arizona?

Rachel: That was in Hawaii as well. So that was initially when I was working at that residential place, that was sort of the high end of the severe mental illness that they were needing to be in a residential facility. Sort of like on the property of the state hospital there. So it was sort of like a connected experience for them. But then when I became a case manager, that’s where I was working in the community. So I worked with people that had mental health struggles, but it was mostly people with severe and persistent mental illness. So like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and addiction, homelessness, you know. So there was sort of more significant struggles with this population that I worked with.

Brenton: And you say severe, persistent, I know what that means. When you say severe, is that just something that impacts your ability to live daily life on your own? Or does that mean like really far having bad thoughts? What does severe mean?

Rachel: Yeah, that is sort of like the terminology that we use for people that are significantly impact, like their ability to function significantly impact. But we would consider like schizophrenia, a severe and persistent mental illness, where it’s like, it can impact so many factors of life. And people who are frequently admitted to the hospital, maybe can’t work, you know, most of the time can’t work. Like it’s in that, or can’t keep housing, difficulty maintaining relationships. So it’s like that spectrum, that was sort of like the terminal. I’m not even sure that that’s current terminology. That’s how we referred to it back then. So yeah, that was about like 2008, nine, seven, eight, nine, 10. This is when I was working in that field.

So yeah, so I was working in that field while I was going to school, while I was going to grad school. So I was doing the case manager work. And so I was driving around all morning tonight, taking people to court, you know, for their court dates or trying to get them moved out of a clean and sober house because they got kicked out for some reason and find a new one like that day. It was a very, very, very stressful job. I loved it because I loved my clients so much. And it was really, you know, of course rewarding when like things were going well and we got them to their doctor appointment and they, you know, got the meds that they needed and that they had the treatment that they needed. But it was a lot of running around and scheduling and planning. I was kind of always on my phone and always driving and always writing notes. And yeah, it was, that’s sort of what that life was like. So that was during grad school. So I went to grad school in the evening after working that day job. And so once I graduated, well, before I graduated, we had to do an internship in practicum, just like those therapists in Tucson warned me about.

So I got into, I guess it was a practicum. So I got into a practicum, which was like 10 hours a week. And then once you get into the internship phase of this, it was 30 hours a week. So I was working 30 hours a week without pay at Salvation Army. It was a Salvation Army detox and like drug and alcohol treatment facility. And so that’s where I learned, I was working as a marriage and family therapist, but I was working really as a substance abuse counselor, really sort of like where I was, what I was doing there, running groups for people who were, that was a residential place that I was working. But people also came in for like outpatient treatment there too, sort of like a combo platter. And there was a detox there too. So it was like a big facility. It was really cool actually. It was a really neat place. And the groups were really interesting. I loved groups, group therapy. I loved watching people like lead a group therapy session and I loved leading them myself. It was really fun. And so that’s where I worked until I graduated, or that’s where I did my internship.

And then I graduated, stayed working there in the detox facility for a little while. And then I got a job at a different facility that was called a dual diagnosis treatment. So dual diagnosis in that sense is that they had substance abuse and addiction and they had mental illness. And so that was like the combo platter of the clientele that I was working with there.

Brenton: Did those go hand in hand, quite often?

Rachel: Well, that was sort of always my argument is like, “Isn’t that kind of like a lot? I mean, isn’t that sort of always the case that if you’re struggling with addiction that you also might be struggling with some sort of mental illness?” And so maybe, maybe not. You know, like that, I sort of argued that, but also like there were treatment facilities for people who just purely struggled with addiction. And this place was like, maybe for people who were like more, had a more difficult mental illness that they were struggling with, as opposed to sort of like substance abuse, like induced depression and anxiety or whatever, you know? So that was sort of like the specialty of this place. And I loved that place too. It was really fun. I was working in a women’s facility. So it was a lot of women coming straight out of prison or jail and coming into the residential facility. And we did groups there too. And we did individual therapy with that population. So that was really cool and fun.

Brenton: Well, dealing with all that, how did you keep your own sanity? You hear whether it’s police or therapists, that they’ll develop PTSD or their own depression, hearing all the stories of their clients and walking through them. How did you protect yourself?

Rachel: Yeah, that’s a good question. I believe hardcore in like taking care of yourself no matter what field you’re in. And that was always something that I connected with, working as a therapist, was just doing a lot of stuff for myself as well. So I mean, I was pretty lucky. I lived in Hawaii. So it was kind of like I had a built in like amazing place to be. So I went to the beach a lot. I had a good group of friends. I went out, this is still early or late, maybe odd. So, you know, so I was, we just went out a lot. I had a really good group of friends. I had met my husband while I was in grad school. I still had my girlfriend from elementary school that still lived there with me. And we had a good group of friends. So I hiked a lot. I did yoga. I did qigong and let’s see. And I just spent a lot of time with my friends. So it was kind of a work hard, play hard situation that keeps me sane.

Exactly. You got to balance that out with some fun and play and a lot of time outside and a lot of reading, just doing what I love and making sure that I didn’t lose myself in my job. And like boundaries, I think are huge and always something to work on. In grad school too, I also had a therapist. So that was part of our grad program was that they required you to have a therapist. And so I had a really wonderful therapist that was really supportive and really just so helpful for my own like practice as a clinician, but also just was so helpful for me as a person, you know, and moving through change after change after change, then getting, you know, meeting my husband, getting married, finishing grad school, starting a job, you know, just sort of that like transitional period of life. So that was really helpful too. And I have, you know, my family and I just stayed connected with them, traveled a lot. So just tried to keep the balance, I guess.

Brenton: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun balancing out everything else.

Rachel: It was fun. That part was really fun. It was a beautiful time of my life. It was one of the greatest times, you know, to be just someplace so gorgeous. I love hiking so much. And since moving to Idaho, my love of hiking is there, but because Idaho has gorgeous hikes, but it’s not the same kind of hikes as the Hawaii hikes. So I loved doing that and just being outside in nature that I think is just nourishing to the soul, movement, bilateral stimulation, being with your, you know, your friends and processing through your day and all that kind of stuff. I had made friends in grad school, so we all spoke the same language of being therapy people, you know, and so that was really good to have around. So, yeah, that’s how we did it, I guess. Yeah.

Brenton: Well, I was thinking about, you mentioned leading a lot of groups. And I had kind of a couple thoughts around that and questions. A really good friend of ours, of my wife and mine, had a saying, “The power of your story is not in the story itself, but in sharing it.”

Rachel: Yeah, I like that.

Brenton: I’m kind of thinking, what comes to mind for me is that that’s the basis groups are built on, not that you’re coming to get super involved, but almost the entry into the group would be hearing, “Wait, there’s other people like me. They’ve walked this, I’m not alone.” So it’s almost like, first, you’re having experienced people sharing their stories and just the shame of the people coming in until they get resilient enough that then they take on that role of sharing their story.

Rachel: Yeah, totally. Like when we think of addiction and just what we know about struggling with addiction is that it’s like the lack of connection. It’s the feeling disconnected from people, from yourself, from God, like that just sort of disconnection. So if the treatment for addiction is the opposite of what addiction creates, it’s connection, it’s to bring people in. And yes, like there’s what we know about shame resilience is like that I’m not alone, that I’m not broken, that it makes sense why I’m struggling. And so yeah, to have a group of people in a similar phase of life or dealing with a similar struggle, and we can add in like some psychoeducation, like learning about why does addiction happen? What do we know about relapse prevention? That we can teach some of those skills while being in a supportive group with people saying like, me too, you’re not alone here. And that something we know about shame is that when we have something that we feel shameful about and we sit in that shame, and shame festers in silence and secrecy and disconnection, then we’re more likely to repeat that shaming behavior, whatever that is. So if we’re treating addiction to be in this like shame resilience sort of environment where people are sharing their stories and you’re seeing you’re not alone and you’re expressing your story and you’re met with empathy and compassion, it’s the hope is that it’s less likely then for the need or the desire or the tendency to repeat that shaming behavior will happen.

Brenton: What’s going through my mind is similarities with OCD, because OCD is an anxiety disorder. And it’s like sitting in that shame. It’s like you need to have a release, something that soothes it. OCD is you have this anxiety and those obsessive things you do soothe that anxiety in a short period of time. So I almost am thinking OCD and addiction are very similar in that like that shame, you’re trying to treat that shame before you sit in it and it builds, you need to do something to release it. Yeah, you do it, it releases it and then comes back.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, definitely. That is a similarity I’ve thought of myself and like to with working with people with OCD or with addiction is that it is a similar, it’s a totally similar pattern of I know what will help and it’s gonna be this drink or it’s gonna be acting on this compulsive behavior that is like a part of my OCD cycle that I’m in. Yeah, and it’s like the belief is that it’s gonna help. This alcohol is gonna make me feel better. And the reality is that it actually really just harms you so badly and it perpetuates the cycle over and over and over and so yes, there’s so many similarities. That’s a really, I agree with that for sure.

Brenton: I’m curious then because you said like one of the treatment for addiction is interaction community. I would imagine part of that is accountability but I would think that’s almost lower down. It’s more replacing the need to do something kind of going back almost to more OCD feeling, replacing that anxiety need to do something with connection, which is soothing that need in a different way.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, totally. The reason AA has been so successful and it helps so many people is for that reason. That’s a big part of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous or any of those NA, any of those anonymous groups is that you get a sponsor and that sponsor has been through this before. They’re not new to that. They’re not looking sort of outside in and they’re in with you and they work alongside you to move through these like 12 steps that is a part of these recovery programs that have accountability, taking ownership of what it is you struggle with, sort of acknowledging that and making amends. But it’s met with so much empathy and compassion along the way. And that like, that hi, Brenton, sort of like statement of like welcome into the group, like to introduce ourselves as an addict or an alcoholic or whatever and then to be met with like right there with you, you know, like that sort of sense of community is, yeah, it’s like, it’s what is really so helpful for the reason that those groups can be so helpful. Yeah, you have someone right there by your side. That’s your reach, instead of picking up the drink, you pick up the phone and call your sponsor. You know, it’s like that sort of like replacement is like part of the theory of, or sort of like the, yeah, the program of AA.

Brenton: Yeah, I’m curious on another aspect there. One of the first things you do is, hi, my name’s Brenton, I’m an alcoholic. And what comes to mind is there’s power in naming things. As soon as you’re naming it, you’re not trying to hide it. And I think that’s why a lot of shame comes, is trying to hide.

Rachel: Totally.

Brenton: So you’re kind of undercutting that shame by naming it. But I think that, I don’t know if I wanna say dangerous, I don’t know if that’s the right word, but I’ll say, the dangerous part or flip side to that is, that can become a crutch. That’s my identity, I’m an addict. So how do you simultaneously name it, but not let it own you?

Rachel: Yeah, that’s a great question, because that is exactly how I think about it too, where I’m like such a supporter of AA and all the anonymous groups, because it’s just so helpful. Like there’s so much success that comes from it. And sort of my point of view on it, and I might be completely wrong, but my point of view on it is that, when you have a lot of empathy and compassion and you’re met in these groups, if that helps you to be able to overcome shame, if you can do that group without saying, hi, I’m Rachel and I’m an alcoholic, and that being shameful to you, because like a side note is one of the like sayings AA has, is you’re only as sick as your secrets, which I love, it goes right along with what we’re talking about.

And so yeah, to be like able to name it and stand tall in front of people and say, yeah, I have this, but I’m not broken. I’m not a broken, like worthless person. I am this person and I struggle with addiction or I am an alcoholic. So that is so helpful for so many people. And I have a little bit of that same reaction that you have of like, ugh, like is that not a little bit shaming? Can that turn into an identity that feels shameful or that can kind of perpetuate into like, this is just who I am. And there’s a lot of literature about that. And that’s really, I think really fascinating. I sort of tend to believe, especially for women, that women especially can sort of like already experienced so much shame in their existence that to go into this group, especially if it’s heavily male dominated and be, that’s I think beneficial that there’s women’s groups, specifically women’s groups in the anonymous groups.

But it can be shameful. It can be shaming, I guess. And so if that doesn’t work for you, just like anything, like to find the right combo platter of what works great for you, I like to run around and do a million things to help me. Some people need a lot more rest than that. And that might be the balance that works really good for them. So if an alcoholic synonymous group or NA group does not sit right with you and you leave feeling, like repetitively leave feeling yucky, there’s different formats to treat your addiction. And I believe that not everybody does have to say, I am an alcoholic to say, I’ve struggled with alcohol or I’ve struggled, I’ve been an addict. I’ve become addicted to a substance. The problem in that, like the way we can kind of view that is that then we’re moving the problem from outside of ourselves into like the substance itself to say, I mean, we don’t go, if you’re quitting smoking, you don’t go into like, I’m a smokeaholic or nicotine aholic. You say, I’m addicted to cigarettes. Those cigarettes are freaking addictive and they’ve caught hold of me. And so I’m letting go of my addiction to cigarettes. I don’t necessarily have to identify with that for the rest of my life. I don’t have to call myself a cigarette addict for the rest of eternity when I quit smoking 20 years ago. So that is, I agree with you that this is like not a black and white, like that’s the end all be all treatment to addiction. It’s so helpful for so many people and it’s not the right path for some people cause it can be shaming.

Brenton: Yeah, I’ve just seen that not even just in that but in everything. You see someone that has OCD and it’s almost, there’s been so much stigma around mental health where it’s like, I don’t wanna go get diagnosed with something. And so it’s like, do you struggle with OCD? Or are you OCD? And that goes back in my mind to the shame triggers where it can almost, it seems to me it has to be a fine line you walk. You have to teach them, yes, you need to name it. That’s one of the first steps. But don’t let it name you. You’re not the mental health.

Rachel: Yeah, totally.

Brenton: You may struggle with it but you’re not the mental health.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I think that that can be the danger of it is that it’s like now, and it can dissuade people from finding treatment. So if I like, and I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve heard this from someone, from clients of mine, from friends, from anybody is, I don’t know, I think maybe I have a problem with alcohol but I don’t think I’m an alcoholic.

And it’s like, okay, that, I mean, fair enough. And you don’t have to be an alcoholic to have a problem with alcohol. In fact, it makes me nervous when there is too much of that. I think it’s unhelpful to have too much of this black and white thinking. Because if you decide to not drink anymore or if you decide to take a break from drinking and say, I’m not drinking, people go, are you an alcoholic? Are you pregnant? Or do you have a problem with alcohol? Well, alcohol is a toxic substance and it’s addictive. So yeah, I mean, it could be very problematic. It is very problematic. It’s like the number one killer of all the substances. Alcohol alone kills more people than all of the other substances combined. It’s very dangerous. So it is sad to me that people go, well, I am too scared to seek out treatment or tell my therapist that I’m drinking so many drinks a night or drinking so frequently or blacking out when I drink because I’m so scared she’s gonna tell me that I can never drink again, that I’m an alcoholic. And the only treatment for alcoholism is to never, ever drink ever again and to go to AA and I have to go to these meetings and that’s gonna suck. And I don’t have to stand in front of all these people I don’t know and identify myself as an alcoholic. That I think, that’s what I think is dangerous for sure. And like that, it would keep people from seeking treatment and getting better from a condition that so many people struggle with, no matter what we wanna label it as.

Brenton: Yeah, to me, mental health, mental illnesses are no different than something physical. If I break my arm, I’m gonna go get it. Yeah, totally. I may be in physical therapy. Yeah. Even call it therapy. Right, right. You may be, depending on the length of the injury, it may be a short, maybe you only need two PT sessions or maybe you need physical therapy for a couple of years. Yeah, yeah. But we treat physical so completely different from mental, like how do we start reducing the stigma around actually treating mental health?

Rachel: Yeah, I totally agree. Cause we don’t feel shame necessarily. We can have shame around physical ailments for sure, but it’s not in the same way that we tend to with mental illness and mental health struggles. And so I think just like, with what we know about shame resilience or what we sort of think about when it comes to like sharing our stories, that’s a big part of it. Sharing our story, more and more people sharing their stories, meeting people when they say, “Oh yeah, I have bipolar, I have depression, or I have anxiety, I have OCD.” That we go, “Oh really, tell me about it. What is that like for you?” And to be curious, to not pull away or sort of recoil and go, “I could never.” Well, why don’t you just go outside similar? Why don’t you just stop thinking that way? To withhold our tendency to try and correct and fix and to just be present with people and go, “Oh, okay, what is that like for you?” I think that’s our path. And I think we’re on that path. I think that I’m happy to see that people are treating mental health conditions with more compassion and empathy. And just like in general, we’re talking about it more. Kids are amazing, like younger kids, like this Gen Z, is it? Gen Z, Gen L.

Rachel: I know. They like talk about this stuff, which, I mean, side note, there could be danger in overly identifying too with mental health stuff.

Brenton: A couple where they’ve made it into a trend. What was it? Split personality. Multiple personality disorder became a trend for a while. Yeah. Letting their different personalities out.

Rachel: That kind of stuff can be, I think, could be potentially dangerous, problematic. And on the other hand, the more we do talk about this, hopefully it really does take the stigma away. So it’s like, hopefully there’s more good than bad in that tendency to share more. I think we’re even seeing it in movies. We’re seeing Inside Out 2, watching a kid go through a panic attack. It’s like, oh my gosh, the fact that we’re having that as on a freaking big screen with a bunch of kids, and we’re like, that’s what that is, and look at how they moved through it. It’s so different than it used to be. So I think we’re on the right path for decreasing the stigma, hopefully. Even the military too, like the military has gotten, I think, better and better at addressing mental health conditions head on and being proactive in treating and preventing PTSD. And just the, I mean, with the mental health struggles that comes from being in the military, especially in being deployed, they’re, I think, getting more and more open about treating that and preventing it, which I think is beautiful, amazing. Like, yes, more of that, I think.

Brenton: Yeah, I want to see a lot more. The tension that goes through my mind is back to that. Like, you want to be completely compassionate and understanding without idolizing it.

Rachel: Yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

Brenton: You want to raise awareness, but kind of that tension you mentioned, like it can be too much where it crosses over into, okay, now we’re--

Rachel: Yeah, because there can be some dangerous behaviors associated with that, for sure. I agree with you on that.

Brenton: Well, going back to grad school, you came out of that. I know you eventually moved back to Idaho. Yep. What brought you back to Idaho?

Rachel: Well, my husband was in the military, and then he finished his time, he was medically separated. And so it was sort of like we were faced with, now, what do we do? Where do we go? And working in the mental health field is not the most lucrative, especially toward the beginning. Working in substance abuse treatment is not a high-paying job. At least it wasn’t for me back then. And so for him to get out, and he was considering going to school, he was sort of trying to figure out what he was gonna do. And so at this point, we were married, and we’d been there for several years. And so he was thinking, we wanted to have kids. We were sort of like in that transitional phase of life, like now what? And so we considered going to a couple different places, but he was thinking, let’s go back to Idaho. He has a really, really big family here, and I’d never lived in Idaho. And so it was like, okay, sure, let’s do that. He’d go to school and we can start our family phase of our life. And that’s what we did.

Brenton: Did you stay in the type of mental health areas you were in, or did you move to different areas initially?

Rachel: When I moved here, I got a job right away as a therapist. So I was working as a therapist in that mental health, or in that substance abuse mental health treatment, but the job I got here was just straight mental health. I ran groups at this place, so that was helpful that I had this experience running groups. And so yeah, I was just seeing everybody. I was just a regular old family therapist, or I see a lot of individuals. Mostly I see people who are just coming in for individual therapy. So sometimes that marriage and family therapy license can be a little misleading. I do see families and couples, but mostly I see individuals. So that’s what I started doing here. And I moved to Nampa, Idaho, and lived there for several years working there. And then we moved to Meridian, Idaho, which is like 15 minutes away from Nampa, Idaho, but we were in a different area. We had our first baby living in Nampa, and then I was pregnant again with my second baby. That’s when we moved to Meridian. And once my little one started kindergarten, or my older one started kindergarten living in this other town, I moved away from the agency that I first started working in and moved to an agency closer to her school.

Brenton: How was moving short distance instead of long distance?

Rachel: Well, moving was no big deal, moving from Nampa to Meridian. No big deal. That was like kinda, I don’t even remember, barely. Moving from Hawaii to Idaho was probably one of the most difficult things I’ve ever done and one of the most difficult times of my life, because I had all those things established in Hawaii. I had my friend group, I had all my extracurriculars, exercise groups, meditation groups, Tigong, all these sorts of things. We had our routine, my husband plays music, and so he was playing, he plays guitar, so he was playing at a restaurant. We just had this sort of like, everything was sort of like a float. It felt well balanced. I was working, I liked my job, I liked what I was doing. So then when I, and this was in February of the year that I moved here, and so from moving to the beautiful, most gorgeous place, Hawaii, in February, which is just as gorgeous as it is in July, to Idaho in February, it was very hard on me. And I was pregnant, I wasn’t planning to be pregnant before we moved, I was hoping and planning, whatever planning you can do with pregnancy, was planning to get pregnant when I was here, and was pregnant before I had edited him, thought I was going to be. And so that was just really scary. It was really, really scary. I didn’t have a job, I didn’t have a house, I didn’t have a car, I didn’t have anything. I didn’t have my family, I didn’t have my friends. I knew my husband’s family, but I didn’t really, really know them. I wasn’t, I had met them a couple times while we were living 3,000 miles away in Hawaii. So it was a really, really, really big adjustment to get a job and buy a house and get a car and have a baby. Like you said, that’s like the most stressful thing, all those things. So it was a crazy time, really, really hard time.

Brenton: How did you make it through at all?

Rachel: I guess, one foot in front of the other. We did have, we had some family support. It was nice to be around family because we had a Thanksgiving to go to. We had family who could be there with us. When I went back to work, we had a family member watch our baby during the day for the few, like I went back to work, I think like three days a week and then four days a week. And that was really difficult. It’s hard to leave your baby with someone. It was really, really hard. So it was nice that this person was in the family. And so that was helpful, that helped us through.

In terms of my sort of focus with my career on mental health in perinatal populations, this was like an eye-opening experience for me as a postpartum mom of like, I wanted a baby. I mean, we were planning to have babies. And so to have a loving husband who was a good husband that we wanted babies, we eventually did get jobs. We had jobs, we had a house. And still how incredibly hard that was, it was so eye-opening to me to say, to like think to myself, in terms of like there, but for the grace of God go I. Like I had a ton of grace in terms of like the privileges that I had in my life, the things that were really supports that I had in my life. And for me to struggle as much as I did, just trying to fricking put one foot in front of the other and show up to work every day and go home and take care of my baby every night and support my husband in his job. Like just to do all that stuff was so hard, even with all the natural supports already in place.

So I recognized that I was struggling and asked my daughter’s, my little baby daughter, her pediatrician, like, okay, I’m a therapist. I know I’m struggling mentally with all of this change and just like this transition into motherhood. And I asked for a referral for a mental health for a therapist. And it was almost, I got the impression that they were like, oh, hmm, well, I don’t know. That’s a great question. Do we have therapists? It was like, it was almost like, wait a minute, you should have like a list ready. Like this is not, I know I’m not alone in this. I knew that from just my education. Like I knew it was not uncommon to struggle with mental health postpartum. And so it was very strange to me that it wasn’t a smoother kind of referral process. So finally they gave me a name of someone. I went and saw this therapist and it was just a terrible experience. I don’t think they had any knowledge around postpartum mental health or treatment or how to hold my emotions. It was just a really interesting and bad experience on my part. And so that’s been a part of my motivation in general, is like when I have these really negative experiences with therapists, I’ve had, this isn’t the first one that I’ve had like that, that I thought, man, I need to be a part of the solution in this. I wanna be able to support moms and families, postpartum families in the way that they really could actually benefit from.

Brenton: It sounds almost like the doctor, and I’m assuming this was more widespread, just take it as, well, this is just what happens as part of it. It’s just part for the course. There’s nothing you can do about it. Just be aware of it and suck it up.

Rachel: The therapist you’re saying, or the pediatrician?

Brenton: Pediatrician, doctors going through everything right after.

Rachel: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting because I don’t, I mean, in terms of like the, my experience with doctors and treating mental health conditions postpartum is that they don’t, they don’t really talk about it. They don’t really ask about it. I remember filling out a postpartum depression survey in the hospital a day postpartum, which is not when postpartum depression develops. That’s something that comes along weeks after postpartum to really even consider it postpartum depression. So to even screen for it a day after birth just doesn’t make any sense. It’s just not accurate. And then you don’t, depending on what kind of, what kind of treatment you’re doing if you’re working with a doula or a midwife, it’s gonna be different, but I was working with an OB. And so it was like, I saw my OB-GYN while I was pregnant. And then, you know, you go weekly by the end and then you have your baby and that’s it. You don’t see them for six weeks. So six weeks later, they don’t, I don’t remember them asking anything about my mental health. I remember them making sure that I was physically healing. It was very like medical, you know, appointment. And then that was it. So it was like the pediatrician was the only person I was really seeing, taking my baby in for her doctor appointments. And so I thought it would have been, I thought that is kind of what they would have responded with was like, oh yeah, this is common. One in five people develop postpartum mental health problems. One in five women and one in seven men. So it’s a very common experience. And so you would think that they would have some protocol in how to refer, how to assess, who’s assessing these moms for this stuff?

Like I again felt privileged that I knew about this stuff enough to even know to ask for help. And it was still sort of, I didn’t feel like I was really led toward any place that was actually helpful. And that was really disappointing. I was sad to know that or sad to have that experience. And I’m sure that there’s a wide array of experiences that I think there’s a lot more knowledge now about it. There’s people who are more, you know, who are better at assessing and referring women, but I still think it’s sorely lacking in the mental health treatment of postpartum moms.

Brenton: Yeah, when I said like, forget the exact words I used, but when I said like, it sounds pretty par for the course. I was meaning there’s no need for any mental health or anything. This is just what happens and you just get through it. It’s almost like completely ignoring it.

Rachel: I think that’s the general vibe of a lot of people. And I think you’re right. I think that’s probably like, well, yeah, of course you’re struggling. You have a baby. Of course you’re tired. You haven’t slept. Well, that’s not how postpartum mental health manifests in a lot of people. Their babies just sound asleep and they still can’t fall asleep. You know, it’s like, yeah, they know they’re safe, but they cannot leave the house because they’re so terrified something bad will happen. They have intrusive thoughts are a really big part of postpartum mental health struggles. It’s a very common thing. Like that’s something that happens to most moms is that they have these really scary, freaky intrusive thoughts. And that feels just like we’re talking about with like addiction treatment. People feel really scared to seek out treatment for postpartum treatment. They have this very big fear that their baby’s gonna be taken away from them or that they’re crazy or that they’re a bad mom. It can be really, really terrifying for a mom to seek out treatment. And so, yeah, it’s, so I think people do sort of brush it under the rug or brush it aside and well-meaning family members and grandmothers and stuff can say like, oh, you’re fine, honey. I know it’s hard. You know, like that kind of thing can be the general vibe. And mental health, like you said, like it’s treatable. If you break your arm and you get treatment, it heals. And when we struggle with mental health postpartum and we get treatment, we heal up. It’s just, it’s very, very treatable. It’s very successful in its treatment. And so, man, if we could just like support moms in getting that treatment, I think we’d all be better off. That’s a huge part of the system, you know, is mothers play a huge role in the system. And so for them to be well, so that they are well for their husbands and their husbands are well for them and their babies are well, you know, or their partners and it’s, yeah, it’s an important place for there to be support.

Brenton: Yeah, there’s a couple things that come to mind. There’s an author, and I’m missing her titles, so I apologize, Diane LeClaire. She talks about, like the church often talks about like the root of all evil is pride. Like the start of sin, everything’s pride. And she argues for women, that’s actually not it. And she talks about that being rooted in finding identity in others, I believe, in others. And so I would imagine kind of a couple things that happen in postpartum is you isolate, like you can’t leave your house. You’re also recovering physically. So you lose a lot of the relationship interactions, which you’re gonna compound whether you’re treating the shame triggers, like you said earlier, where it’s you need that community.

So I’m picturing all of this interacting together. And it’s like, how can you address that? Because if you’re placing your identity in other people, and that becomes a strong point, you don’t want people to see you when you’re weak. So I imagine a lot of mothers, it’s like, I’m recovering, I don’t want other people to see me like this. But what they need is some of that, compassion interaction relationship. It’s an interesting dynamic that’s playing there. I think like anything, you have to have enough understanding about it, you can’t treat bipolar the same way you would OCD. Everything has different interactions. And I think that’s a big part of the conversation. And I think that’s the reason why I need those specialties to understand how to handle it. I don’t think you can just send someone prenatal, perinatal to a generalized mental health professional. I’m sure they could help some. Yeah, definitely. But if you’re lacking some of the context for the rest of the underlyings. So how do you treat and see a lot of that?

Rachel: Yeah, I like agree to everything that you said. I mean, it’s the most important. Yeah. When you’re like, I don’t know, it’s just like, you know, it’s just like, you know, it’s just like a series of different bodies. Yeah. And like I said, I’m not really sure if you’re not really comfortable to be postpartum. Like for one thing, we’re going through a huge hormonal shift. The hugest of our lives. And it’s big and we, you know, the way our system is set up, like a lot of times the partner goes back to work very shortly. Sometimes the mom has to go back to work very shortly. Like I did six weeks postpartum, you know, it’s too short.

Shame is a huge part of motherhood. It becomes, it settles in in this like really crazy way where, I mean, if you think about, okay, so we’re at home now with our baby, we, you’re right. Like our identity becomes like my identity is being a good mom. I need to be a good mom and I don’t want to show any weakness or vulnerability. And for men that looks different than women and for women in this sense, it looks like not being completely capable. And of course we’re not completely capable. We’re not meant to be, I mean, we, we are capable, but we’re not meant to be doing this all alone. You know, we’re, we’re designed as a social species. We’re designed to be around other people and to have our village and to have our support and have intergenerational support, you know, to have our grandparents around and our mothers and fathers around and to be supportive in us. And so, and that’s a huge protective factor for not developing mental health struggles postpartum, but a lot of us don’t have that, you know, and a lot of people, we move around the country more than we ever did. And, you know, and so we’re, we’re finding ourselves stuck at home alone without the support, without connections. And then we have social media showing us how to be a good mom and showing us how these moms are doing it. And then it’s like, I did it. Like it just turns into this shame spiral of I’m so bad at this. I don’t have the education and like support in knowing how to do this, knowing what’s normal, knowing what might, what’s normal mentally, you know, to be going through how to cope with any of that stuff. Um, and not like, and then seeing all this stuff on social media and not having the like shame resilience to be able to see it for what it is, which is money. It’s about money, you know, like social media is a profiting organization. So it’s like, it’s there to make money and views don’t have to necessarily be informational or accurate to make money. You know? So anyway, that’s a whole side note. But that’s the purpose of advertising.

Brenton: And they learned very quick. The best advertising is cause someone to be afraid.

Rachel: Yeah, totally.

Brenton: You can elicit that sense of I got to act now.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Afraid. And, oh my gosh. Necessarily beneficial. No. Oh my gosh. It’s like the worst combination ever. So yeah. So in terms of like, how do I treat that? I look at that whole big picture and we treat all those pieces we like build. I mean, there’s so many, there’s like, um, there’s components of mental health treatment for, for perinatal, you know, for the perinatal population. And, um, education is a, is a big part of it is to like, I, it’s really cool because a lot of times when I meet with a mom for the first time and she like brings this pain into the session and tells me what she’s going through. And even for me to just give her really, really basic information on what is postpartum depression, what is postpartum anxiety, what’s not postpartum anxiety, um, that postpartum depression and anxiety don’t turn into postpartum. Um, psychosis, that’s a huge fear for a lot of parents is that there are, for a lot of moms that they’re going to hurt their babies and, or that they’re going to be believed that they’re going to hurt there, they’re going to be thought that they’re going to hurt their babies. So it’s like, so they sort of come in with this like fear of opening up to me, but also like the gas pedal of like, but I know I want to be here. I want to get better. And just being able to give them education on what, what mental health looks like postpartum can be huge for just easing some of the pain to begin with, um, and then to set up resilience to some of these other things like this shame, setting up supports in their lives, finding new balances with their partner. Like how can the, you know, working partner still also show up in the middle of the night, like the mom sleep is a huge component of postpartum mental illness. It’s a huge component of mental health in general. And we know it with our kids. If they don’t get a nap or like you need a nap, you’re a mess. And like, here we are with these like postpartum moms getting three hours of sleep or two hours of sleep interrupted four different times or whatever. And they need a nap, you know, so even just setting up some basic, like, um, sort of structural changes of how is your day structured that can make a huge difference too. So that’s the kind of stuff that, that I treat in, you know, working through mental health. And then if it turns, if there’s OCD stuff, we have specific OCD treatments. If there’s, you know, anxiety, we talk about different, you know, we treat anxiety that goes along with that in sort of the context of postpartum.

Brenton: Nice.

Rachel: Yeah.

Brenton: I, I have a couple thoughts. Um, one is culturally, I would imagine this presents a little bit more in individualistic society. So more in the West. I would imagine it’s not as much, um, on the Eastern societies, because that culture is much more family. You’re going to have multi-generational, you have that support much more baked in or even forced on you.

Rachel: You’re right.

Brenton: And accept our help. We’re, I’m sorry. I would imagine there’s a cultural difference there that I could see playing out.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Because there is, I mean, because, uh, a protective factor is that family support. So in cultures where family support is baked into the culture and is just part of the dynamic where we have multiple generations living in the same household, there’s like, there are more resilience factors. It’s not completely protective where they, you know, where it’s non-existent in some cultures, because it’s just a part of the existence of being a postpartum mother and father. Um, but yes, you’re absolutely right. Like those, those, um, resilience factors or those protective factors are different in different cultures. And the risk factors that we have in America are high. We had a lot of them. And so we do have a lot of, we have a lot of struggle with postpartum mental health.

Brenton: Yeah. You help those around you. If you know someone who’s pregnant or just delivered, how, how do you do that? I know for us, like my wife was on bed rest for like two and a half months. And that was very long and rough, but we had an extremely supportive church family. They set up a meal train for helping us out with meals. Um, because I mean, she had a lot of that shame. She was not on bed rest. Like I should be cooking for my family. Exactly what you should be doing. But how do you help those around you? How do you set up the relational systems, um, to help those around you?

Rachel: Yeah. Like if you knew someone who’s pregnant or postpartum. Yeah. I think you’re, you totally hit the nail on the head with like the, the logistical logistic support is a big part of what you can do is, I mean, a lot of times people go over and they want to see the baby. Of course, you know, it’s like, that’s what I want to do when I see someone postpartum is like, I want to see the baby. But I would say it like right off the bat, I would say ask for any sort of boundaries that the parents have. So if the parents have boundaries around like, don’t kiss my baby, be respectful of that. This is their family. They’re, they’re setting the stage for their own culture in their home. And, um, grandparents can feel real put off by that. They can have sort of their own, maybe even shame response, but it could be just like that they’re like, well, that’s silly. I didn’t do that with you. So we should do it this way, you know? But, um, so I’d say like first and foremost, respect any boundaries. Don’t just stop by without asking, but like, but do, do like work to support that person, you know? It, when we ask things like, how can I help you? That can be a really helpful question to ask, but also it can put the responsibility on the mom. Yeah. The mom’s like, I literally haven’t slept. I’m bleeding. I am sore. My breasts hurt. Like, I don’t know. I don’t even want to think, I can’t think about that, you know? So like instead, maybe something that could be helpful is to say, um, I’m, I made an extra meal tonight. I can bring it by, you can stick it in the freezer or you can have it tonight for dinner. Would you like me to come by tonight at five with it hot or would you like me to come by another time, you know, something like that where it’s like, yes or no. Kind of like an easier answer and that they don’t have to come up with some sort of way of helping. So anyway, we can logistically help people with meals come over and yes, we want to hold the baby, but see if you, if there’s dishes in the sink, do the dishes. If there’s stuff on the floor, see if you can like help clean that up. Of course, ask for permission. We want like that, you know, that we, I would be careful around. Like it can, like you said, feel shaming, you know, shameful, but on the receiving end, if we, as the mothers can be receptive to help, like that is a huge protective factor is be receptive to help. Let people come and help you. There are seasons for giving and there are seasons for receiving and postpartum. It’s a season for receiving. Let people help you as much as possible. When your husband says, I’ll wake up and with the baby tonight and I’ll, or I’ll change her before you feed her, whatever, let him do that. In fact, ask him to do that. If he’s not doing it himself, husbands help with everything that the, the significance of the pain that women go through postpartum and the benefit of them having support is so drastic. And it changes the whole trajectory of their lives and your family life. So it’s like you said. It’s in your best interest to be very supportive and helpful to your postpartum wives.

That’s one way as a partner, you can help is to, to do as much as you can. But as a friend, same thing, do as much as you can. If you want to hold the baby, of course, like, like that’s a part of loving on these babies and part of being a part of a community, but see if there’s a way that you can do it where the mom can go take a shower, sleep, or if you can do something that she doesn’t want to do, she wants to hold the baby. That’s what the mom wants to do too sometimes, you know, and they don’t want to, they don’t want you to hold the baby so they can go do the dishes. You go do the dishes. So that would be some ways of helping.

Brenton: Yeah. I, I’ve seen a couple different ways of that. Like, uh, a grandma can come in. Well, I know you need to shower. There’s things you need to do. I don’t want to impose on you. Of course I want to hold baby, my grandchild. But why don’t we work this in a way that helps everyone around? I can come and see the baby, but I can, yeah, you get your shower without pressure, sleep, go read a book. I’m not also imposing on you. Okay. Now you feel like you have to entertain.

Rachel: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Brenton: It’s very light. Feels light touch keeping connection alive without the pressure of I have to think through a conversation.

Rachel: Yes. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. That is so true. That’s so true. That, that can be something too. You could even set up like ahead of time. Excuse me. Is like to have a little list on your fridge of what has to be done today. And maybe this is what the partner or the husband can do is like, we have dishes, the floor needs to be swept. Uh, we need to pick up groceries or out of milk, you know, or whatever. Like write these things on the board. So that when someone, if, if you’re lucky enough to have people coming over and helping like amazing that if they’re, if people are coming over to see the baby or, you know, to visit and they say, what can I do to help? You can say, I have, I have a list on the board and then go do it. If you’re the person coming to visit, know that this is a crazy phase of life. And if you haven’t been through it, you, you can’t imagine, like you really can’t imagine, and so to be like, I maybe don’t understand why this is so hard, but I believe that it is this hard. And so I will go do the dishes. I will go bring you some milk, whatever it is. That’s on the list, you know, and, and to like release as the, as the parents receiving help release the shame that comes with that of, you know, do like this imaginary thing of trying to do it all alone, trying to do it all on our own. We don’t need to do that. That’s not how we’re made. So accept the help. And this is the time of life we need the most help. And so be compassionate with yourself. Be gentle with yourself as you go through that phase of life.

Brenton: Yeah. I, I want to circle back on one thing real quick. Um, cause I think you said something that would surprise most people, at least if they’ve never gone through it, but maybe a lot of other people too, is that one in seven men experienced this part of depression. So I want to touch on that, but I really do want to focus on the mothers, but what are, like, what does that look like in the men? How, how can people help with that? Mm-hmm. Are for lack of a better word, warning signs.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a really good question. Um, so men, one of the number one risk factors, um, of men getting postpartum mental health struggles, anxiety, or depression, um, is if the woman’s struggling, if the woman has postpartum depression. Um, so if you think of sort of like what you were talking about earlier, like the things that seem selfish or the things that we’re doing for other people are self-serving as well. So if you think about like, these are the things that play into a woman’s postpartum depression, if I can be a part of soothing her and helping her and supporting her so she doesn’t develop postpartum depression, I, as the husband, am also less likely develop, to develop postpartum depression. Um, so that’s a, that’s the number one risk factor for men is the, is the wife or the woman struggling, um, mentally. And the, the sort of warning signs men can kind of, uh, it sort of can manifest differently for men. Men can sort of become more aloof, more pulled away. This can be really, really hard on the woman, of course, who’s like feeling disconnected and needing a lot of connection. Um, so that’s what it can look like in men. They can sort of start to work later and, um, you know, have that, that, that like shorter temper. So it might not look the same as like feeling weepy or crying, but it’s like more, um, disconnection would be sort of like, that’d be what I’d look for.

Brenton: I would imagine some of it is like, biologically it’s our job to protect and take care of, um, so if you’re going like men are problem solvers, you’re going through something and there’s nothing I can do about it. I think that goes back into the shame thing. Yeah. Yeah. I’m a failure. I’m yeah. Feeling all this stuff. Yes. And that’s where I think I’ve seen some men do that. Is it feels more like they’re failing their life?

Rachel: Yeah. I’m not fixing this. And that’s so frustrating. We see that in birth too, of, you know, a woman’s in pain and the husband can feel really, really out of control. They can feel like, well, this is not my realm. I, uh, don’t know how this is like woman’s work. I’m out of here. Um, which is that can be really, really hard on the woman who’s like, I don’t need you to attune with me. And we just like we say in like couples counseling, like, I don’t want you to fix my problem. I just want you to hold, hold me, hold space with me, hold, just be here with me as I struggle. And so yeah, you’re right. Like it can, it can feel the same postpartum is to be like, I don’t know what to do. Like, in fact, I think that’s a sad reality for a lot of men too, is that they start to feel disconnected, even in terms of just like their role as father of like, well, I can’t do anything cause you know, I don’t have boobs. So like, I don’t have working nipples, so I can’t, there’s nothing I can do to help. So I’m out of here. And I think you’re right. I think shame can play a role in that for sure of, um, well, what am I supposed to do then? So for men to get information and get education, come into therapy, like come to, you know, be, be with men groups, be with other, ask your women in your life. Ask your wife. Like ask the people around you to say like, how can I best help? You know, cause it might not be the way you think, you know, telling her to go outside and go for a walk is not going to be the fix for mental health stuff. Supporting her and holding, you know, holding her in this struggle, doing a lot for her, it’s going to be a lot of work for you. It’s a lot of work to become a parent for the mother and the father. And so to sort of like come to terms with that and be like, okay, yeah, this is going to be really hard or it’s going to be a lot of work. I shouldn’t even say hard, but it’s going to be a lot of work. And that’s okay. This is like, this is the gift I’m giving myself in the future because when men know how to show up or do show up and even if they’re fumbling through it, that’s, that’s still really great to show up for their wives. It sets up better attachment for their babies. It sets a better relationship satisfaction, long-term satisfaction, like long-term success in their marriage to be present during this incredibly vulnerable time for the woman. Um, it’s like the best gift you can give to your family is to, is to just stay, stay emotionally, stay in physically, you know, stay present and to do as much as you can for her.

Brenton: I want to take a stab at my understanding and then you can correct me or no, okay. So there’s a couple of things that I’m seeing here for, and I’m not thinking just mothers or just fathers. I’m kind of trying to step back and look at the whole picture. They’re both at risk, um, for postpartum depression. Um, but one of the biggest things to combat that from my understanding is going to be, um, relationship community, which then is hugely hinged on communication. So in my mind, one of the best thing a husband and wife can do as they’re having a baby is facilitate open communication more so even than in other periods. Like things are going to be messy and we’re going to accept each other messy in this. Yeah. There’s going to be some heated emotions or, um, weepy emotions across the spectrum. But stay present and really communicate, focus more on communication than you have in other times. You may not be able to say what you’re trying to say.

Rachel: Yeah.

Brenton: I need to just be open to receive what you can when you’re able to. And so, and I’m, I’m not looking at the community around right now. I’m just, yeah, just solely the husband and wife as they’re coming in. Focus heavily on communication. Wives be willing to accept the comfort from the husband.

Rachel: Yes.

Brenton: Yeah. Husbands be willing to accept the critique criticism feedback. Yeah. I don’t need you to fix it. I really just need you to go away and let me have five minutes a piece or. I need you to just hold me like you all need to be more receptive. Yeah. Interacting communicating in that period.

Rachel: Totally. Yes. It’s a very vulnerable time. And so it does require more tenderness and more sensitivity and more intentionality. So, yeah, I totally agree. Like it’s not the time to be like floating through the marriage. It’s a time to be really intentional with attuning with each other. You know, that is something that we, that’s what we need to give to our babies. You know, when babies are born, we want to attune with them. Like when they cry, we go, Oh, are you, do you need to change your day? We’re like, what’s going on here? Let me like tune in with my baby and respond to their cries for help. You know, and the same thing goes for the couple in the relationship. A lot of times the women aren’t necessarily capable at that time of tuning in with the husband as much as she used to be. And so it can feel difficult. It can feel out of balance because it is, it’s like, it’s like when we, you know, have like a mobile and we pull one side, it’s like, everything’s out of balance. It is out of balance postpartum because we just added a whole new person to it. We add, we changed everything. You’ve got a new role. You’ve got a new baby. You got everything’s different. So it is disrupted. Like the system is disrupted. And so it’s out of balance, but it gets back into balance. It finds its new balance.

Um, so yeah, so the, for the husband to really attune or the partner to really attune to the mother and, um, it just like we’re doing with the baby when she needs something to hear that. If, if we give a baby a bottle or we feed the baby or whatever, and then the baby swats it away and we go, gosh, sheesh, like that is not attuned. And the same thing goes when you come and try and help your wife. And she goes, I just need some space or, Hey, can you grab me my water? And the spouse goes, cool. She’s like, that is so damaging. It’s so hurtful. I mean, that goes across the entirety of your marriage. Like I would not suggest that sort of response in general, but, but we’re extra sensitive, everything’s extra tender postpartum. And, and in pregnancy too, you know, so to be like, just gentle in your response, like, Oh, okay, you, you’re not hungry, baby. Well, let me, maybe you’re cold. Let me wrap you up warmer. Maybe you need a diaper change. Let me check that. Maybe you want to change positions. Like, let me just sort of go with this and hold your wives or hold the mothers in the same tenderness of do you, do you want me to get you some water? No, I just need some space. Okay. I got you. I’ll give you some space. Do you need me now? Like, you know, just be gentle and fluid with it. Be flexible. Just like we are with babies. Be available. Yeah. It’s like, yes. And do more work than you’re used to doing. Go do the dishes twice and three times, four times, the dishes will keep on coming. You know, do all like dishes is just the scratching the surface. Like there’s so much to be done, you know, and caring for a baby, caring for our homes and that kind of thing. So to be present with that as much as possible.

Brenton: Another side there. Sometimes the most work you can do is doing no work at all. And what I mean by that is you mentioned moms need a nap and she may not want the baby set down. So the best thing you can do is sit down and make a crazy out of your mind. You feel like you have a hundred things. Yeah. The best thing you can do is sit down and just hold the baby for a couple hours.

Rachel: Yes, totally. That’s such a good point. And that can be hard to do. And it’s like to know that this is a season, it’s going to change. You’re going to be able to get back at your car project when later on, you know, like it’s just temporary that this is, it’s a buy-in into lifelong happiness in your marriage to do that. It’s the greatest gift ever. And like on the other hand, on the opposite end of things, when you don’t do those things, it is incredibly damaging to her and to the baby. It’s like, it’s your marriage, you know, it’s just incredibly damaging to not be present. So yes, it’s like a hundred percent just to sit there. That can be difficult, but that can be the greatest gift to hold the baby or let her hold the baby and you do something that she needs done or whatever.

Brenton: You, we mentioned at the start that you got into the perinatum and postpartum therapy. What pulled you to that? You mentioned partially after going through your own pregnancies, but then you’ve been leaning more and more in that direction. Is that just where you mentioned that doctor that you went to, like, well, this is an area that needs help. So I’ll step in here.

Rachel: Well, there was like little seeds along the way being planted. That was definitely one of the seeds. Another, um, another seed that was planted along the way is as soon as I was pregnant, I realized people were telling me their birth trauma from the beginning of my own pregnancy, like strangers, you know, where I like, it’s crazy that things that people would tell me, you know, I will be like walking around all pregnant and people at like Best Buy would be like, well, I tore from a here to here. And you know, it was like, why in the world? And so from like my analytical analytical sort of therapy point of view, it was like, what the heck is going on here? Why? What would compel someone to tell a complete stranger who’s pregnant, like about to go into something really scary of a birthing, a baby that’s scary or it can feel really scary. Um, why would they tell them that trauma? And so I was like, I don’t think people are processing their birth trauma and they’re not because what happens when we have a baby, everyone goes, how, how was the birth? Maybe someone asks that. And then we go, well, it was, you know, it was whatever it was this, this and this and they go, well, at least everybody’s fine. Glad that glad that’s resolved. Anyways, how’s the baby? Let me hold the baby. Like moving on. It’s just, we’re move. We move on from it really, really quickly and we don’t process it. And so, um, like unprocessed trauma kind of comes out sideways. It comes out sideways on the port, like pregnant woman at Best Buy, just trying to buy her pencils or whatever, you know, it’s like, so that was another seed that it was like, this is interesting. Um, and then I had wonderful support from my husband in our birth. Like he was very supportive. He was a, he was a great husband. He came to all the birth classes with me and stuff. And we did, um, like a birthing technique called hypnobirthing, which is basically just like a deep relaxation, but it’s very supported by your, by your partner. And so he was just really like, he was good at just holding that space for me in, in my birth experience and sort of keeping people away and like sort of creating this safe little like den for me to birth my baby. Um, and so that was really cool. It was like very, um, powerful, like spiritual. It was very like moving to me to go through that experience. And so it was like, wow, this is something that not everybody gets. And like, if I could help, this is what kind of drew me into some doula work is like, if I can help prepare families to have that sort of like support for each other, that would be really cool. Um, and another seed and then this is the last, and then we’ll, we can end, but the, um, the other thing that I would hear, so I was seeing couples doing couples therapy and people would come in 20 years, 10 years postpartum post having babies, and we’d talk about why they’re in for couples counseling. What, what, what a rye, where did this all start? And it all started postpartum, you know, or a lot of times they would say, well, he was not there for me. I was in so much pain and he didn’t get it. And he wasn’t there for me. And you know, I’m pissed. Like they would be resentful and like be holding onto this, this pain, feeling of like, um, like feeling of abandonment from their person in their time of the deepest, um, vulnerability.

And I was blown away by that. Like to, to hear these stories, to have all these different things going on at the same time and being like, this is something that’s not being treated. Like they didn’t, the men didn’t know how to show up for her in birth. He didn’t know how to show up for her postpartum. And this is like the long lasting result of that. This is why I say like it is long. It changes the trajectory. And so that I just became more and more and more interested in it. It’s like, I need to do something to be a part of the solution for this and to be a part of helping prepare couples for what is in store for them when they go through birth and postpartum, because they’re not prepared. They, because I believe that if they were prepared, they would, they would do that. They would show up for their partners. They would move through it differently if they had better preparation, you know, maybe not perfectly. They don’t know. And like, and like you said, they, you know, men want to help. They want to find a solution. And if they don’t know what the solution is, then it feels like hopeless for them a lot of times. And it can feel very hopeless for the woman too, to feel like my person’s gone. He’s turning away from me. It’s, it feels so damaging for their attachment to that person. You know, it can be really, it can result in like ending the relationship. It’s really, it’s important, you know, so those, all those seeds put together in the little tree of really wanting to be in this field, particularly this particular field.

Brenton: Well, I guess the last question. Um, what have you enjoyed most transitioning to this area of the field? And what has been the biggest challenge?

Rachel: Okay. Um, I want to say my knee jerk reaction is the, my, the best thing about it is all the babies I get to see, but that is just total surface level. But I do get to see babies and they’re the sweetest. I love babies so much, but truly like the, I love doing this work so much because it’s so treatable because it’s such an acute problem. You know, it’s sort of like it comes on fast and it, it can resolve quickly, you know, with the right support and with, you know, like with education and just knowing sort of what to do, it postpartum mental health struggles can be short-lived. They can be healed quickly. So it’s so fun for me to be the one that can receive mothers coming in for treatment to help them move through that feeling of fear and shame, like, and to be there for them to like help provide some empathy for them. And that they’re not alone, that this is something that’s so common and for them to know that they’re in a place that they’re going to be met with love and compassion. I love that so much. Um, so that’s definitely, and to see them heal and feel good and, and go, well, I think I’m good. I like, I think I’m feeling better. You know, just the most beautiful thing in the world for me. Um, that’s the best part. The, the challenge, I think, I think probably like the challenge is external challenges of just like the, like, I don’t have control over social media. I don’t have control over the American culture. I don’t have any control over the dads not showing up to, you know, let the mom sleep for a few more hours or to shift their sleep schedules where they get to sleep for a few hours here. And then the husband sleeps for a few hours here or whatever. Like, um, so I’d say that’s probably the difficult thing in treating postpartum, um, mental health is that like, there are a lot of factors that are outside of our control, you know, which is, which is the same case for everything. And, you know, because external factors play such a role in the wellbeing of postpartum moms, it can be a big, it can be a barrier to getting better if those things are not supportive of her.

Brenton: Yeah. Well, I’d say you’re taking control of one aspect, but you’re getting information out there, which does spread that awareness and take some of the outside control away.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. That’s like all we can ever do is just what can we do? What do we have any sort of say over and it’s like, well, I can show up for them. I can spread information. I can create a support group. I can put information out on my social media or whatever, you know, like that’s, that’s what’s in my grasp.

Brenton: Well, if people wanted to follow you or, um, get to know you better or recommend you as, yeah. Or any of that, where can they find you?

Rachel: Well, you can find my website is just Rachel, fabby.com. So it’s R A C H E L F A B B I.com. Um, I’m on Instagram. My, my therapy, um, pages just at Rachel, Fabby, my doula pages at a dot bun dot dance underscore doula. Um, but yeah, that’s probably the best way to get ahold of me. Um, I’ve run a support group called mommy meetup. So we have a at mommy meetup, uh, Instagram handle too, that you can find some information on there. We have information on sleep and different resources in the community. And so, yeah, that’s probably where I’d start.

Brenton: Yeah. I’ll throw some of those links in the description. Thank you.

Rachel: Appreciate that. Postpartum support international is another one I would love to like tag in here too. That’s a, an organization that, um, has online support groups. So people all over the place, all over the world can connect to, um, zoom support groups that for all different types of things, loss, OCD, anxiety, anxiety, depression, all the things that you can imagine there’s support groups for it. So that’s a great, great resource to connect and to connect with therapists who specialize in postpartum mental health treatment.

Brenton: Yeah. Yeah. I’m glad to get all that information out there.

Rachel: Me too. Thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it.

Brenton: Thanks for coming on.

Rachel: Yeah. I appreciate that so much.

Brenton: Thanks for watching the Brenton Peck podcast.